Comments for Moderate Islam: the Growing Sentiment Against Liberalism at http://www.islam21c.com , comment 1 to 29 out of 20 comments http://www.islam21c.com Sat, 22 Nov 2008 08:28:57 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.2 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-258 good article - should be posted in a major newspaper. - Farouk Michaels Sat, 15 Sep 2007 17:58:29 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-254 A really good debate - However, I do believe that the West as well as those Muslims living there need to possibly study and understand Islamic Theology more deeply instead of 'naming' different peoples. - suge Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:14:31 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-218 very interesting read. - Bintus Sabeel Fri, 03 Aug 2007 16:42:14 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-145 Really good article, and I loved the debate!! I would really like to know what 'political Islam' is! - Abu Muhammad Thu, 10 May 2007 09:49:41 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-139 are muslims asking for too much from the west? would we get the same (good) treatment in the east? - I'm Phd'ing Sat, 28 Apr 2007 01:17:35 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-137 Brilliant article. It made me contemplate our understanding of different aspects of the British community and the inherent racism instilled within us. It seems that we still have much to learn. Muhammad said "Moderate Muslims do not seek to establish Islam as a juxtaposition of the west; rather, Islam is a way of life which transcends all political boundaries and cultures. Muslims adhere to Islamic principles regardless of governmental alignment or lack thereof, as the purpose of observance is solely to seek the majestic pleasure of Allah." It seems non-Muslims have politicised Islam (something we claim Muslims have done), whereas we really need to educate ourselves about the theological aspects of Islam - understand what 'pleases Allah' acording to Muslims. - A guy from around here Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:01:00 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-135 Assalaamualaykum, MashAllah an excellent article and a refreshing debate... - a pharmacist Tue, 24 Apr 2007 02:35:39 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-129 This site has some decent but very limited stuff. The article by Mr Nizami instigated much debate which I must say I found quite enlightening! Look forward to an info packed website were we learn about Islam from perspectives alien to the West. - Harry Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:17:37 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-128 I don't understand how you managed to jump from democracy to extremism. You asked about the roots of resentment for western democracy and I gave what I thought was a possible answer. The reason why I used iraq as an example is because it's the freshest in everyone's mind and one of the most explicit examples of a complete hash that has been made of it. I could have used the example of afghanistan before it, turkey, algeria, egypt, most muslim countries where democracy has been brought in at the expense of shariah, muslims living there and everywhere else don't like and so resentment arises, pretty simple really. As for the extremism issue,very complex as you can appreciate, but whether it's yourself, the sun, the government or anyone else who's telling muslims how to sort themselves out, regardless, dedicated members of the muslims are exerting themselves to improve things, there is no magical answer. However if the government comes to muslim community asking, 'whats the problem and how can it be solved?' the first thing that can be said to them is how they personally can help solve things without having to ask others-change your foreign policy. This doesn't mean we're not doing anything on our side in the meanwhile. - brother Thu, 19 Apr 2007 11:29:56 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-127 It is plainly incorrect to equate the notion of a 'middle nation' with being moderate in any Western sense. Islam is the 'middle nation' in its own terms and is as such moderate in and of itself. It IS the criterion of moderation as Muslms see it and that every other position is measured against it and not the other way around as some involved in the discussion would have it. Further, it is only a half step away from foolishness to suggest we can discuss Islam using the Western notion of right-left dichotomy! I do not accept that Muslim scholars use this exact terminology with the ideologcal underpinnings as at least one discussant has suggested. What is 'left' or 'right'-wing Islam? It is non-sensical - indeed it is a nonsense! If you want to insist on using such terms ten they must be thoroughly defined in the context of the discussion, not left open as if we all understand what a liberal Muslim is. Indeed, what does a liberal Muslim look like? Is t someone who is lax or is it someone who invokes the liberal (political/ philosophical) tradition? Is it a pro-democracy advocate, or a womens rights activist? These terms are not fr flinging around in the expectation that a single meaning is understood by them or even possible! How many liberalisms are there!? Are Tariq Ramadan, Hasan Al-Turabi, Fatima Mernissi to be banded together as liberals? Are they all after some form of secularism? How many moderate Islams are there? Is doing the 5 pillars m oderate or is standing in the night extremism? There are of course the minimum sets of belief and actions etc that are essential to attain for the ascription of Islam to be authentically applied to a person, but beyond that things become far more relative. There was an Arab who said he'd do only the 5 pillars and was approved by the Prophet (saw) and yet another was scolded for not standing in the night a alluded above. So which is it? This is why we should stick to the terms that Allah gave us as much as possible and it is why we do not say without serious qualification things like 'middle nation' = moderation. The author failed to properly define 'moderatism' as such and explained only that the government and the media and some 'house Muslims' are trying to define and impose their idea of a moderate Islam. This is quite different from 'moderatism' which is an unfamiliar term used to denote a very ambiguous 'moderate' position, a position that is entirely reliant upo its determinants, i.e., what is extreme and what is laxity - a characterisation that cannot realistically be applied to Islam. We could find 5 groups of 'jihadis' and of them some would be moderate in terms of 'jihadism' and so on. The author has not explained exactly what moderatism is, how this differs (if it does) from Islamic moderatism, or how this differs from the Western notion of Islamic moderatism, and indeed does not tell us with any detail or analytic force how this is supposedly become and is being inculcated by the government and media to be 'the norm'. We are left to assume an understanding but there is nothing by which we can test our assumptions to see if they are either correct and/ or what the author had in mind - just look at the different uses of the word liberal and we cannot pin down a single meaning but are thrown around between an everyday use, a philosophical use and a political use, none of which are exact synonyms as such! The article promised in its opening paragraph to undertake these definitional activities and also to undertake a sweep of analysis, it does not deliver. It is still an interestng enough piece to be sure, and the number of respodants is testiment to this, but the article itself does not fulfil its own promise and all good is from Allah alone. Even the title relies on a single report mentioned only briefly to suggest 'growing sentiment against Liberalism', there is no real analysis or further explanation to back up the assertion. Allah knows best. - Abul-Layth Wed, 18 Apr 2007 13:08:38 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-126 Hi Pauly, Nice point; and I don't mean that patronizingly, I think it evokes exactly how a lot of non-Muslims think. But you see the problem is a little intractable. Since you are forwarding an origin debate, could it not be equally true that the present discord amongst the Muslim community* is the out come of these arenas of injustices. You see, if there is recruiting going on, if there is a process of radicalization, then what is fuelling this? I suggest it is an accumulative (and equally selective) catalogue of Western mishap in foreign expeditions. Because the question is, why did this "threat" not come into existence 20, 30, 40 years ago? Look, there is a problem, and the Muslim community is doing something about it, but in an age where I am afraid to even say the word "terrorism" openly in a coffee shop and discuss the true sense of "shariah", for fear of being picked up by anti-terrorist guys (a fear which is very real in the Muslim community, because so many people have been picked up) doing anything is going to be tricky. Secondly, the government has dropped an agency like MCB (which had its problems no doubt) in favor of new-government-created groups (Sufi Council of Britain) because MCB chose to speak against the Iraq war, which suggests that there is a culture of manufacturing Muslim views which breeds further distrust and discord. Lastly, I want you to consider the argument that one of the reasons we do not see the threat 20, 30 years ago is because western ideologues have helped construct and shape this new menace. A series of images and a consistent evocation of age old exoticism (both alluring and threatening) relating to Muslims has bred a form of self-fulfilling prophecy. This does not mean that there is no blame to the "Muslims" who commit atrocities - criminals are criminals - but to not take into account structural factors which produced conditions in which such crimes could occur, will not solve the problems. The IRA were not pathological criminals - the treatment meted to them was a factor in their choosing to undertake such action. People are not born bad apples. And even if we have some bad apples, we cannot change them, but we can change ourselves and our social surroundings in such a way so as to minimize the impact such people can make. Finally, it is important to understand two things. As the Muslim voice increases in our current political discourse, we will find a greater movement away from out and out politicized discussions to discussions about aesthetics, philosophy, and such presently less discussed topics. It is because the current climate is so heavily politicized that everything that seems to come out of the Muslim "community" seems a political rant. The second thing to take into account is that what seems a rant is just a balancing of views. Muslims in the West are by and large happy, peaceful, and grateful - at least I am. As someone interested in intellectual activity, I have learnt from history that any time a society is in political and social upheaval, intellectual activity is ground to a halt. Thus for that reason, the relative harmony in Britain - plus an overall good spirit of toleration unlike in France - is what I favor to develop my intellectual thoughts. My sadness is only that I see the west in which I am lucky enough to reside as not assisting but fostering a condition of chaos in other countries, thus preventing true intellectual growth in those nations. I pray for a little more wisdom, for all of us. *if there is one - and the only reason I add this footnote of caution is because, being under media scrutiny it seems like there's something huge going on in "our" community (even though to what extent we are a community in the true sense of that word is questionable) when truthfully while the Muslim community was under scrutiny the "black" community had its own on going problems which only came to light when something dramatic got picked up by a sensationalizing media. - Visitor Wed, 18 Apr 2007 10:40:47 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-125 This is great. The individual voices here expressed are fantastic. What's even better is that, unlike many message boards after an article, the one here is polite but firm instead of being unnecessarily rude, which in general I find very offensive and distasteful. A few points. I see what Abu Mustapha means, and within his defined terms yes I see the analogy working. So I agree with it to that extent. But I find it nonetheless a little reductive. I really do think one of the issues is to try to comprehend what "religion" is. Don't get me wrong I don't have an answer (though I do have an opinion) but I see this to be one of the crucial arena's of contention. A proper (in depth) operationalisation of this term is needed. We can all believe in a God - even a self confessed Atheist may acknowledge, when pressed, that there is a possibility/probability of there being a God, and in so far as that is the case every disbeliever is essentially a species of agnostic. But it is on the issue of religion as a personal, social, intellectual, and political organizational factor that true debate really exists. Humanists (in a broad sense) and cultural theorists (specifically) have done a thorough job in changing the frames of references to show culture as the matrix within which religion exists. Located here, religion as an organizational body is deduced as a social construction liable to change (as a category, so that nationalism, secularism, etc. can replace it) or be done away with (as in communism and certain strains of socialism) over time. God remains because even after the ascendancy of empiricism and sociology in the climate of opinion, there is an individual intuition (due to the confrontation between the individual and the world) that echoes very faintly a consciousness of there being an originator. We may term this the fitrah. This alone does not lead one to "religion" and even less to "Islam". What is needed, in my humble opinion, is an addressing of the frame of references. Sadly, this message board is not the right vehicle for that, but this website may well be. Keep it up. - Visitor Wed, 18 Apr 2007 09:41:40 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-124 Everytime Muslims are asked about a question, they bring up the Iraq issue. I'm not saying I agree with the war, but Terrorism is something everybody must fight. If we want to analyse the root of extremism we can't blame Iraq, Afghanistan or Palestine, we have to start at home. Yesterday, it was in the papers that loads of uni's are being infiltrated by extremist groups who are 'converting' moderates (they're probably liberals according to Muhammad!). This is proof that such conversions are on the behalf of extremist groups brainwashing individuals, not the war in Iraq. I'm not proposing that we go in to uni's to hunt them down (inevitably this will cause dissention among students), but what are you as the Muslim community doing to counteract this? How are YOU as a Muslim community going to counteract preachers of hate? How are YOU the Muslim community going to counteract suicide bombings? I've heard many times the Muslim's saying that its not them and they have nothing to do with it, but I say you do. If anything, its more your mess than the British government. I'm not saying its the community's fault, but it is from those among you (every group has rotten apples). When the IRA were conducting their bombing campaign, I didn't hear the Muslims joining in and attempting to pro actively stop it (or do what they could), they left it to the British government - so now its your turn. You cannot pick and choose when you seek separatism - its all or nothing. - Pauly Wed, 18 Apr 2007 08:33:06 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-123 Democracy isn't that straight forward, the governments in the west are not all practicing the same thing, and even here the libdems want a change to see 'fairer' democracy. I don't think muslims hate democracy in and of itself, although we dont endorse its prevalent form, and as you put it well, you understand that muslims feel the Shariah is the best option. However I think the problems arise when the US and its allies put their hands in other peoples' countries causing mischief and over 100,000 deaths in the false cause of uncovering nonexistent weapons, then use the excuse of removal of saddam, and also justify this bloodbath by saying we're establishing 'democracy'. I don't think the problems are about democracy in the west, the problem arises when democracy is forced down muslims' throats in the middle east and beyond, not by the ballet but by the bullet. It may be easier to see now why there is such resentment for it, and on top of that it seeks the removal of the Shariah in Islamic countries. On this note, I think another misconception needs to be cleared. Muslims do not seek to establish the sharia over others in the uk, rather we seek that specific and simple aspects of the shariah be allowed in cases where muslims agree to its use, like some jews in the uk can use parts of jewish law to deal with certain aspects of their lives. This is only used by muslims and by choice and is not forced on others. And upon being asked what we prefer, Shariah is the most obvious answer, it's an opinion, it doesn't mean anyone's going to topple parliament for it, this is just media scaremongering. - brother Tue, 17 Apr 2007 20:59:02 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-122 Very informative. This is the first time I've actually sat and thought about this whole 'intergration' and 'identity' issue, and I must say, I kind of understand where M Nizami is coming from. - A Casual Guy Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:48:34 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-120 Assalaam walaikum Mashallah a really interesting discussion on a sensitive topic of the left and right divide within the Muslim community. I guess from the comments above, even an analysis of the analysis of the community causes differing interpretations. The use of moderate, middle-way and these kinds of terms incite differing concepts in various disciplines. The new 'Muslim academics'/'englightenment Muslims' have claimed the word to mean 'hey look, Islam is so humanist like the green party!' which is a dangerous approach. But then again, even the political divide has been fudged. Anything to do with social change is now right wing, and inherently dangerous for society and thus a necessary evil (perhaps for the ruling class it is anyway!). The left movement within British Muslims/Muslims living in Britain must be monitored. 'Universalising' Islam is a dangerous thing to do, especially while its happening alongside globalisation, that is, the universalising of the world through a homogenous culture vis-a-vis Americanisation. The values of Islam are timeless, but universal in the modern sense implies freedom of time and space and thus culture. The Qur'an and Sunnah though, is permeated within 6th century Arab culture as defined by the Prophet (as), and thus much of his culture (as) is an essential part of it. Continue universalising Islam (according to the current definition used by the majority) and we will end up with "The Nasheed Factor", "Islam MTV", "Urban Jilbaabs", "Mohamed, Mercy to Mankind" showing in Odeon Cinema from 17th April and Islamic Bank of Britain patronising us when they equate the development of halaal banking with the picture of a 'sheep bank' instead of piggy bank. Oops we're already there! Social change is through the permeation of culture in the modern world and not ideology. Invasions of countries are just a formality to close the matter. - Ataullah Parkar Tue, 17 Apr 2007 07:10:07 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-119 Asalamu alaykum Akhi Muhammad, Mashallah, it is a very good article and well overdue! I agree that it is more needed in nonMuslim newspapers, but to tell the truth, I'm simple happy that it has been posted. Maybe this is the voice we as 'orthodox' Muslims have been waiting for... Jazakallahu khair - Sulaiman Rogers Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:57:08 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-118 I am constantly plagued by Muslims who like to repeat their disgust for western democracy. I can't fathom as to why Muslims see it as such a bad thing. Every person gets to vote for who they want, and the majority get there way, while the minority are also given the right to debate. Nobody is oppressed in the process - the greatest good for the greatest number of people. I recently read a book in which shari'ah was stated as being that which acrues most benefit. Isn't that the same thing? I would love for the West and Muslims to get along, but I dont understand why Muslims are filled with so much anger and hate. I understand why you want sharia law, but honestly, if I went to Saudi Arabia and asked for a Ham sandwich, I'd be asking for a decking!! - Peter Jarty Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:53:01 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-117 "We now have human rights whereby you cant simply cut off a persons hand or begin to stone fornicators!!" But it's perfectly justifiable to incarcerate over 500 men for years on end in Guantanamo Bay, subjugate them to vicious acts of torture, render them as "illegal combatants" in order to deny them of their rights under the Geneva convention, hold them indefinitely without trial or charge and then insult their religion as a means of psychologically breaking them. My point here isn't to make a comparison between human rights as viewed and implemented by Islam and the West, this I feel can be addressed by a separate article. However, it's very clear that the "human rights" you so boldly proclaim distinguishing the Western law from the Sharia, is lacking when it comes to minorities - in this case the Muslim minority. Guantanamo Bay is simply the tip of a very vicious iceberg, thousands of other men and women are held in ghost prisons all across the world where one can only imagine what happens to them. Not to mention the the prisons right here on her majesty's soil which have held men indefinitely for the past 10 years, and in some cases, even longer. I find it inconceivable that people can still use the vague term "human rights" to demonise and attack the Sharia and yet be completely oblivious to the constant human rights abuses which are taking place at this very moment in most Western countries. If you consider the Sharia to be devoid of any human rights then I would disagree but respect your point of view , but to attack the Sharia and purport the West's view and implementation of human rights I find highly offensive and shows a complete lack of understanding of current world events and clearly demonstrates your liberal rhetoric. - Wanderer Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:47:41 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/british-affairs/moderate-islam-the-growing-sentiment-against-liberalism.html#comment-116 Jzk for all the insightful comments. I just wanted to make a few points where I disagree. The first with regard to the analogy of exams. In my opinion it's very simple and need not be complicated, the lessons from it are many. If I study hard and prepare for my exams I am considered a diligent and studious student. If I work hard in practicing Islam, I'm rigid and orthodox. If I follow the advice of my professors and teachers, I am sensible and wise and a rebel if I go against them. If I follow the advice of Allah (swt)I am considered as being 'dogmatic' and a 'wahabi', whilst if I rebel I am considered a 'moderniser' and a 'liberal free thinker'. Allah (swt) has described this life as a test, to see who is better in deeds. Moreover Allah has said the one whose scales are heavy is successful and the one whose scales are light has failed. We know that there are levels in paradise, the one who does more in preparation for it has a higher grade than the one who does less, very simple. The equation is, if you meet Allah's criteria you pass and if you don't, you fail. In using this analogy I have not quantified eeman, Allah and his messenger quantify eeman, and Allah is the ultimate judge, using his own criteria, but essentially it's pass or fail. I also think using the terms moderation or extremism is justified. Allah himself in the qur'an branded us the 'middle nation'-ie.moderate, and has warned against extremism, where he addresses the people of the book telling them 'do not be extreme in your deen'. The people of knowledge use these terms and are able to better explain their meaning, therefore essentially I don't see a problem. I agree we should be careful with using the terms flippantly however, but with the correct etiquette and understanding should be ok. Some points I disagree with sister rahima on are the following: British values? Have you not been in on the latest debates in this country about precisely the lack of values in this country? And for all the positive values that I admit are in the UK, no one group in the world has a monopoly on them. Do you know that the British people are not even agreed about what they stand for. Research shows that English, Welsh, Scottish etc. are less accepting of britishness than the ethnic minorities who came here. It's as though we're bending over backwards to blindly follow a concept which the people who themselves come up with it are not sure of. Secondly, officially this country is not secular, it's a christian country, not that it really matters in this context. The very values of this country allow all people to choose their way, unlike yourself who's going against these values and forcing us to accept secularism. We are very accepting of this value and choose the truth which is Islam. It seems that we are more accepting of British values than you. We don't impose Islam on anyone, however if a person accepts Islam then practice it, don't change it to justify your own inclinations. It’s also unfair to use examples of bad drivers as a basis to criticise the vehicle. Side point - The UN has now implemented circumcision as one of the MOST EFFECTIVE ways of stopping the spread of AIDs, imagine if we had given up this practice upon your advice trying to follow others and modernising our complete deen. I don’t want to sound arrogant or rude to anyone, but rather wish to put forward an argument that makes more sense to me. - Abu Mustapha Mon, 16 Apr 2007 13:17:31 +0100