Comments for Ramadan: The Month of the Qur'an at http://www.islam21c.com , comment 1 to 26 out of 20 comments http://www.islam21c.com Sat, 22 Nov 2008 06:16:14 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.2 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-309 "Is brother Muhammad a shaikh (scholar)? How come we've never heard of him?" He used to visit my uni to give khutbahs, Mashallah, some of the most AMAZING I have ever heard. May Allah reward him and increase him. - Gordan Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:31:37 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-301 A really good article with interesting debate. I wonder if anybody has drawn up a possible plan of how we can change ethnically traditional communities (like the S.Asian communities for example). It seems such a shame that we have let go of the most important aspects of our deen and are happy with being second class muslims!! - Sultan Wed, 24 Oct 2007 00:28:03 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-293 Good points. For a while in the Asian community women have been forbidden to go to the mosque, but I really hope things will change. - Umm Safiyyah Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:27:05 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-292 I think with reference to point 1 by brother S Haider, as Maria mentioned the arab layperson has more knowledge than an average non-arab of the qur'an, but very little as compared to someone who actually studies classical arabic properly. Therefore it for the one who studies arabic properly whether arab or not, to be a better custodian of knowledge rather than the arab in and of themselves. A last important point with regards to understanding the qur'an with regards to arabic. It is true that you have more access to information with which you can increase your knowledge of the deen. However more significantly for the one who learns arabic, is that they can receive and be humbled by the word of Allah swt. By Allah if the mountains carried this word, they would be split asunder. It is enough to realise that a minimum of 60% of our daily salawat contain the audible recitation of the Qur'an. Should we not ponder over this? Just being able to grasp what Allah swt is saying is enough to elevate heart through every ayah. Even those with little understanding or none, are profoundly moved by the recitation of the Qur'an, and this is the unique aspect of the Qur'an, that it is a recitation after all, for the tongue to recite and the heart to be moved, and not merely a book to be read and understood. A constructed understanding of the meaning of the ayaat is what we all have, we learn what the ayaat mean through the Qur'an itself, ahadith and other sources etc. Whichever way and to whatever level we understand the Qur'an, the one who can hear and perceive the general meaning of the Qur'an and the one who can't is a distance between the earth and the heavens, and that is what arabic gives which no english translation can. - KSI Fri, 05 Oct 2007 22:10:11 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-291 Good article and about time we challenge 'traditions' in our community. - Umm Aishah Fri, 05 Oct 2007 19:06:01 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-290 Hebrew, probably extinct since the 3rd century C.E. as a spoken language, persevered along the ages as the main language for written purposes by Jewish communities around the world. It has been 'revived' several times as a literary language, and most significantly by the Haskalah (Enlightenment) movement of early and mid-19th century. Near the end of that century the Jewish activist Eliezer Ben-Yehuda, who was no scholar or linguist, owing to the ideology of the national revival ("Hibbat Tziyon", later Zionism) began reviving Hebrew as a modern spoken language. Eventually, as a result of the local movement he created, but more significantly as a result of the new groups of immigrants known under the name of 'the Second Aliya', it replaced a score of languages spoken by Jews at that time, such as Arabic, Ladino (also called Judezmo), Yiddish, Russian, and other languages of the Jewish diaspora. Arabic seems to be the oldest living religious language, and it seems that this fact is due to the continued efforts of Muslims to adopt it as one of their major languages. As brother Muhammad indicated, let's not fall into the same pit as those before us... - Zionism is racism Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:17:04 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-289 'Native speakers of Arabic have long claimed that Arabic is far more than a language; rather, the language of Islam, the language chosen by God to speak to mankind, influences how a person perceives the world and expresses reality. This, in turn, has a profound impact on a society's outlook...Looking at the differences between students schooled primarily in Arabic and primarily in French, I found the differences between them to be many and profound. To sum up the differences, Arabized students see the world in a far more Islamic fashion than do their French-oriented peers. What Arabic-speakers say about their language, in short, is true.' - Quoted from James Coffman Thu, 04 Oct 2007 14:03:00 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-288 'but the level of scholarship was extremely high and masters of hadith flowed from there in abundance!' Only if.... - Imran Thu, 04 Oct 2007 13:52:12 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-287 1)It is commonly held by the majority of scholars that there exists a major difference between the laity and the Arabic speaking laity. However, to make an assertion that understanding Arabic gives greater impetus to understanding Islam as the religion comprises of multi facets such as fiqh , tafsir, aqeedah, hadith etc. It would be irresponsible to assume that understanding Arabic automatically implies that you will study the deeper and finer points of the faith. However, if two individuals (one Arabic speaking and one non-Arabic speaking) were to embark on a journey to study Islam, inevitably the Arabic speaking student would be able to provide research of a much higher caliber and more insightful. However, in terms of merely understanding the Qur'an, I have found the majority of lay Arabs (that I have come across during my travels and studies) to be much more knowledgeable about it than non-Arabs. 2) Understanding the Qur'an is not an impossible feat but requires years of in depth study. Ash Shafii' said that Muhammad bin Hassan Ash Shaibani (student of Abu Hanifah) spoke Arabic as eloquently as if it were his mother tongue. It is known that many foreigners have contributed to the Islamic sciences, and consequently such contributions can only be made through mastery of the Arabic language. However, we are discussing the Qur'an, and a basic understanding of the Arabic language will get you very far. I believe the problem lies in the fact that most non-Arabs have no clue as to the content of the Qur'an, let alone some kind of idea. I believe this is what Nizami was hinting at (all hats off to him!). 3) Historically, Arabic became the lingua franca in the sense of being the language of Islam primarily, and consequently, the language of administration. However, the main reason (for most people) to learn Arabic has beenfor the sake of Islam. Obviously things such as politics and economics have affected some learners, but I don't believe this subtracts from the need to learn. 4) Lastly, I think 'culture and language's' comment was quite comprehensive, in the sense that we should be promoting an Islamic culture. Our use of Arabic should be to embody that culture orally among ourselves as a society, although native tongues can be kept alive at home. This has been the case here in the UK with English. I personally believe that theorising must be left behind and we should all make it a priority to learn the Arabic language to the best of our abilities (...Fear Allah as much as you can). If we analyse our very own history, we can see the role that Arabic played - as indicated by ibn Taymiyyah. Although Khurasan adopted Arabic as their language, they never lost their ethnic identity, but the level of scholarship was extremely high and masters of hadith flowed from there in abundance! Even if we look at the Middle East today, different countries have different traditions although they all have Arabic in common. To the extent that you can see a clear difference between the Sudanese culture and 'khaleeji' culture. I believe we need to start know as we have already seen the ill effects of the lack of the Arabic language in our communities. - Maria Thu, 04 Oct 2007 04:49:39 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-284 Culture and language are inevitably linked, but the question is this - Bases upon the fact that Arabic plays an important part for religion, is it Arab culture we will pick up or Islamic culture. Many people argue that culture of an individual is extremely important as it provides a sense of 'ethnic belonging', but I'm Indian and feel no link to the Hindu's of India. Having grown up in LA, we kinda have our own hybrid culture where neither India nor Arabia nor Mexico have anything to do with - it's a culture formed with people from different backgrounds. Islam also offers an inclusive culture, and of course supercedes the one in LA, but what would the problem be of Muslims all around the speaking in Arabic? Don't the Jews speak Hebrew (although within their respective homes they may speak German, Yiddish etc.)? If we are to assimilate, it should be into an Islamic identity, and we should be recognised as such, from our language to our dresscode. Recently I watched a clip on Qiyaamu ul Layl. All the people were dressed in white thobes and red shimag's and it looked absolutely beautiful, the fact that all the believers were syncrinised. Don't get me wrong, I don't really favour the red scarf as I believe it is a symbol of Arab nationalism, but the uniformity made them look united and strong. Maybe we as Muslims in the West should adopt something similar. Let the believers be one!! - culture and language Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:30:55 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-283 Imam al-Shafi'i stated: "People did not become ignorant nor differed except after their abandonment of the Arabic language and their inclination to the language of Aristoteles." (Ad-Dhahabi, Siyar A'lam al-Nubala 10:74 and al-Suyuti in Sawn al-Mantiq p.15) - M.N Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:43:33 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-281 In regards to the level of understanding, shouldn't it be enough to understand the apparent verses of the Qur'an (so that it has an effect) without having to delve into the deeper matters of balagah etc. To have a working knowledge of Arabic in order to communicate effectively between eath other would be amazing. As for other languages, I don't think there is a problem in their usage at home - but Ibn Taymiyyah definitely points to Arabic being the Lingua Franca between Muslims. - Abu's Abu Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:10:15 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-280 Masha Allah interesting article and ensuing discussion. The quotes from Ibn Taymiyyah all seem to originate to a particular passage though split here into manageable chunks The first part of his discussion is in answer to Muslim Arabs moving to foreign lands and taking up foreign tongues and customs, etc. This context is thus important in understanding the detail of what he is saying. It may not seem it at first but the part where he tries to logically prove the obligation of Arabic is not unambiguous because it follows from a certain context, and he is not quantifying what level of Arabic a person requires to fulfil 'the obligation' apart from the coverall the Qur'an and Sunnah, indeed we cannot know from this translaion what type of obligation he is referring to. As understanding the Qur'an and Sunnah is in reality extremely difficult, even for native Arabs, it seem unlikely that Ibn Taymiyyah is suggesting that every Muslim must understand Arabic to the level of a scholar because that is the implication of 'Understanding the Qur'an and sunnah'. Maybe the emphasis is on understanding, and that this is obligatory upon everyone (of course, how can you submit to something you have no comprehension of whatsoever?!), but each to their limit, 'Are those and those who don't know equal?' They are not, but this also indicates that whilst those who know are better, still there are ranks and levels of knowledge and thus abilities. So, is an illiterate farmer sinful because he doesn't understand the finer points of balagha or what about taqdir and idmar? I think also we could perhaps refer to a reply in the fatwa section of Shaykh Salman Al-Awda's site and one on Islamqa (from Shaykh Ibn Jibrin) to the question of obligation of knowing Arabic, that one needs it to fulfil ones religious duties (most centrally in ibadah). One of the responses also makes the point that to know Arabic well is hard even for Arabs. I'd like to add that we need remember that there is a world of difference between the pure fusha of the Qur'an and ahadith and the colloquial Arabic spoken throughout the Middle East. Also the level of Arabic a student of knowledge requires is vastly more complex than the local newsagent, and a scholar more than the student. None of this should detract from the importance of Arabic as the language of Islam and to know Islam more deeply one requires Arabic. If the pint is made that a person can have insight even though they do not have Arabic, then masha Allah that is good, but how much deeper might they have been able to delve, how much greater would the yield have been if this had been accompanied by Arabic? Arabic can only add to understanding, it can only beautify one's insights and knowledge, after all it is the language Allah chose for the final revelation to al of mankind for the rest of time. It is essential to have some familiarity with Arabic, not mere pronunciation but proper understanding of the words and formulas prescribed, for the Muslim in order that s/he complete the levels of ibadah required, but to know the language beyond this is not an obligation upon everyone, and even if some scholars say so, it does not mean they are talking about our specific context, perhaps even they are wrong? And Allah knows best. - brother Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:45:35 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-279 Alhumdulillah, a wonderful piece of writing, concise, clear, and on the whole conceptually coherent. A few questions/points though – 1) If it is true that understanding Arabic gives greater impetus to understanding Islam, are the Arabs the custodians of the best of understandings about Islam? If not (and I suspect it is not the case) then what other factor must be kept in mind for "understanding" the Qu'ran? 2) What does one get from learning Arabic in relation to the Qu’ran? I suppose one understands directly what Allah is saying without a translator. But is this entirely true? Native speakers of a tongue have an intriguing capacity of understanding a language through reference to itself. When a second language is learnt however, is it not the case that it is understood in relation to another language and hence a trnaslatory process is in place. This involves the use of dictionaries, people’s explanation of the applicability and conceptual boundaries of words and, in the case of the Qu’ran, a historically established exegesis of the words of the Qu’ran. 3) Historically, when Islam spread to Iran, India, North Africa, and Spain for example, Arabic followed as the language of power - but did it become the lingua franca in the sense of being the language of administration? I suspect it did, in which case, historical learning of Arabic had as much to do with entering the echelons of power as for the sake of Islam. That is not to say one ought not to learn Arabic but that historically it has been learnt because it was carried forth on the back of power. Our discussion about the past ought not to forget this, for then a skewered picture emerges of the present when compared to the past. 4) Lastly, what is to be said of other languages and what place do they hold in Islam? If the Algerian example is to be taken to its extreme then the implication is that a people’s distinctiveness is encapsulated in language. If true then is there not a subtle danger, if the idea is to make Arabic dominant, of imposing Arabic culture as well? The above may seem like an unnecessary obfuscation, but I am doing it deliberately so as to suggest perhaps that amongst Muslims we need more thorough theorising around issues of culture, language and its relation to thinking and identity, and in this case, what it means for Allah to have chosen Arabic as the language in which to reveal the Qu’ran. I am NOT – emphatically not – questioning the central argument in Muhammed’s article of the importance of learning Arabic as a language for the better appreciation of the Qu’ran (as an Arabic text); that to me seems perfectly sensible. - S. Haider Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:02:33 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-278 I think Abu Mariam's comments effectively and concisely discuss footnote 22 and it seems that most people among the Western Muslim community agree that Arabic had a major part to play. To be fair to the author, I think his reference to the S.Asian community is based on those living in Britain. From experience, I can wholeheartedly say that my time spent in the madrasah system would have been much more fruitful with lessons surrounding the Arabic language instead of monotonously reading urdu 'kitaabs'. Although Muhammad could have clarified his examples - he has a point - 'there tends to be a culture of ignorance particularly among South Asian communities'. This is demonstrated by the Tabligh as well as the general populace of mosques. Additionally, I believe Muhammad refers to so called 'scholars' among the Asian community, those individuals who are looked up to by the community, although in reality they are not trained in any of the islamic sciences. As he states 'It would be true to say that many of these scholars do not know Arabic themselves and are ignorant in terms of Islamic laws and rules of conduct'. Thus implying they are NOT scholars. However, this statement does not negate the fact that scholars DO exist in the Asian sub continent (some of a very high caliber). As for his general statements, he states that 'I was informed...' and by his use of inverted comma's, the ‘Maulana’s’ he refers to are those who are taken to titles rather than educating their community. From a personal point of view, I believe if the Asian community were to review their policy on imamate and scholarship in their communities, Muslims would possibly be lifted out of much of the ignorance they dwell in - and I say this due to the fact that most Muslims in the UK are from an S.Asian background. And Allah knows best. - Another brother Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:52:17 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-276 as-salaam alaikum, It is important to remember that we are talking about an axiomatic issue of identity. Al-Shafi'ee and Ibn Taimiyya may be the most famous of the proponents of the obligation of learning Arabic but they are far from alone among the scholars. With the ascendency of Anglophone and Francophone influence, as a result of Colonialism/neo-colonilaism and the resulting divisive legacy within the Muslim lands we have become desensitised to the political, economic, societal let alone religious dimensions of our 'true' mother tongue - the same that influenced all Muslim countries' written scripts without exception (until the likes of Attaturk and others dictated otherwise). Sheikh Ali Tamimi - after his trip to Beijing's UN Womens's Conference - related how Arabic was to be found inscribed in stone within the confines of the ancent Forbidden City - a testimony that Arabic was once employed even within a non-Muslim Chinese government. It is notable that the fledgling Pakistan was to adopt Arabic as alingua Franca and teach it to its citizens. Had this happened, one can imagine that Pakistan would asserted a national identity that demonstrated a seriousness within a unique intellectual dimension that would reach out to Muslims worldwide and may a clean break with India - whose Urdu dialect is held to be 'purer' than that used in Pakistan. The argument put forward by one of our respected Deobandi brothers that they have more Huffaaz and Ulema (than who?) is misleading: The first translation of the Qur'an in India (al-Hind) appeared at the hands of Shah Walullah Al-Dehliwai. Muslims in India, who didn't know Arabic, were thus limited to their scholars for translations of the Qur'an. Why? Because the Qur'an is supposed to be understood in Arabic. We have a very real and distinct advantage over non-Muslims (whatever their religious heritage) in that we have the word of Allah before us - preserved - and it's not preserved in English or Singalese! Should we seek to understand or obscure (through wilful negligence). Didn't Allah say: 'Indeed We have revealed an Arabic Qur'an, in order that you may understand' - what relevance is this verse to a non-Arabic speaker? Must he or she limit themself to a third-party understanding? Whether a priest or monk or 'maulavi' or translator - a barrier has been erected between you and Allah's speech. As a translator of Arabic, one is fully aware of the ease with which one may tailor a translation. Muslims must learn Arabic to strengthen their understanding of their faith and retaining it's uniqueness. We don't have to have perfect Arabic (it's breadth is akin to an ocean) yet will grow in understanding of our Deen inshallah. A final note to the author: Arabic is often taught to a reasonable level in mant madrassas in the sub-continent yet the spoken component, for obvios reasons, may be quite weak. The author of the Madina University Arabic book series is a non-Arab - in fact an Indian alim (although his knowledge of Arabic means he is classed as an Arab). While reading your article, while agreeing with the principle message, one is a little taken aback at the generalist statements which attack scholars of teh sub-continent's apparent non-commitment to Arabic and diparaging use of the title 'maulavi'. Our Shareah disdains negative generalisations which slur a people. They were uncalled for and could have been worded in a neutral manner, with less propensity to offend. Jazaak Allahu khaira. Arabic without Arabic - Abu Mariam Sun, 30 Sep 2007 08:11:39 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-275 I don't think anyone referred to 'Deobandi's' as 'ignorant', it's important not to put words into people's mouths as matters then become exaggerated. - Brother Sat, 29 Sep 2007 22:57:15 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-274 I believe the issue of whether Fard al ayn is matter of ijhtihad, and brother Muhammad's point was that many scholars hold the view that it is Fard. Additionally, reading Ibn Taymiyyah's view 'properly', I agree with the author as Ibn Taymiyyah strongly indicates the presence of Fard al ain in regards to Arabic. - Another brother Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:14:49 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-273 I agree with the brother that learning Arabic is not fard al ayn. Not everybody has the time to learn Arabic, and it is something which the scholars need to know. We refer to them and they assist us in knowledge. I think it is unfair to claim the Debandi's are ignorant - we probably have the highest rate of hafiz's and alim's than other types of Muslims. At the same time, we CAN read the Qur'an in English! - A. Deobandi Sat, 29 Sep 2007 09:10:59 +0100 http://www.islam21c.com/knowledge/ramadan-the-month-of-the-qur-an.html#comment-272 'It is most certainly a blessing to be able to read the Qur’an in Arabic, but understanding it holds equal weight as both are considered by the vast majority of scholars as fard al-ayn (incumbent upon all individuals). Is the author really suggesting that learning Arabic is fard 'ayn? I must say that in my studies scholars have certainly not said that it is fard 'ayn. What is fard 'ayn pertains to the necessities of worship such as the requirements of prayer and hajj or example. It is of course necessary to understand Arabic well if one wishes to understand the Qur'an well, to be a strong student of knowledge and so on, but as for the general statement that it to learn Arabic is fard 'ayn, then I do not believe this to be the case. Please note that the statement of Ibn Taymiyyah (rh) directly following the above quote does not support the posit that Arabic is fard 'ayn, that is, obligatory upon all Muslims unrestrictedly as a proper reading will show, and Allah knows best. - brother Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:44:34 +0100