Islamic Law 
The Correct Time to Start Your Fast (Inc Timetable)
The Correct Time to Start Your Fast (Inc Timetable)
The Correct Time to Start Your Fast (Inc Timetable)
Shaikh (Dr) Haitham Al-Haddad
Jul 29
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Last Updated on Sat, 30 Jul 2011 17:02
Having written this and respectfully disagreeing with others, I urge all to maintain the Islamic etiquette of differing. We should not allow such differences to disunite us or place enmity in our hearts. May Allah keep us united, keep our hearts pure, and forgive our shortcomings.
The occurrence of Ramadan along with the beginning times of Isha, Maghrib and Fajr prayers during summer leads to confusion for some Muslims living in Europe, North America and Canada, and of course, given that the accuracy of prayer times is ever more so sensitive during Ramadan, it is important for the Muslim community to confirm the correct time for commencing fasts. This article will discuss the starting times of the fast, known to some people as sehri, suhur, or imsak. It will also recommend a time for the Isha prayer as well as the taraweeh (night prayer) during the holy month.
When is the Fajr prayer?
The beginning time for the Fajr prayer is the start of the time for fasting according to all Muslim scholars. The basis of this consensus is the verse,
“And eat and drink until the white thread (light) of dawn appears to you distinct from the black thread (darkness of night), then complete your Saum (fast) till the nightfall.” [1]
The Prophet (peace be upon him) instructed the Companions, “The athan (call to prayer) of Bilal should not prevent you from eating Sahoor (predawn meal) because he gives athan at night, therefore keep eating and drinking until you hear the athan of Abdullah ibn Umm Makktum. He (Abdullah ibn Umm Makktum) gives athan when the fajr comes out.”[2] The Fajr referred to in the hadith is the true Fajr: al-Subh al-Sadiq. Samrah ibn Jundub related that the Prophet stated, “The vertical light (al-Fajr al-Mustateel which is the false Fajr) should not prevent you from eating (Sahoor). You can eat and drink until the light appears to spread (al-Fajr al-Mustateer – the true Fajr).[3]
How do we decide on how to ascertain the correct time for Fajr?
Although most scholars agree on both the shar’ῑ signs given in the divine text concerning the start of Fajr, they disagree on how to interpret the shar’ῑ signs as actual astronomical phenomena. And even when an interpretation is decided on, scholars differ on how to deal with fasting and the five daily prayers due to the abnormality in the timing of prayer during summer in Europe and North America.
Shar’ῑ signs and Mushahadah
After confirming the shar’ῑ sign for the start of fasting and the Fajr prayer, how do we decide on al-subh al-sadiq in actuality? Is it when we, either as individuals or as single communities, actually see it (mushahadah) or merely when we confirm that the actual astronomical phenomenon takes place even though it has not been seen? If it is when the astronomical phenomenon actually takes place, how do we decide that it definitely has done so?
Much has been written on the topic and thus a repetitive discussion need not take place here. However, I will provide key points that should allow us to decide on the matter. The only way to decide the start of al-subh al-sadiq is the mushahadah of the phenomenon, that is, a global and widespread witnessing of this phenomenon in which we can confirm the presence of the light on the horizon, i.e. al-Subh al-Sadiq. This mushahadah produced a formula that was used as a criterion to establish that the prayer time had started even if a specific mushahadah for that place or time did not take place due to numerous factors such as weather conditions, weakness of eyesight, or ignorance of the actual interpretation of the shar’ῑ sign itself. For example, if a person intends to break his fast but is unable to see the sun set due to some reason, then he may still break his fast when the supposition that the sun has set in accordance with its regular occurrence. Similarly, a person cannot continue eating his predawn meal claiming that he could not see al-subh al-sadiq himself. One may know the time of al-subh al-sadiq either by comparing it to the previous day, the testimony of a second person, or by calculation. In fact, he can record the prayer timetable for a complete year and then use it in the following years - he does not need to witness the shar’ῑ signs every time a prayer time comes in. Allah said about prayer times,
“Perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) from mid- day till the darkness of the night (i.e. Zhuhr, 'Asr, Maghrib, and Isha prayers), and recite the Qur'an in the early dawn (i.e. the Morning Prayer). Verily, the recitation of the Qur’an in the early dawn is witnessed.”[4]
The verse establishes that prayer times are linked to actual astronomical phenomena rather than seeing it with the naked eye – this in contrast to the ḥadῑth concerning the start of Ramadan which is linked to the notion of physically sighting the moon and not depending on astronomical actualities. The Prophet peace be upon him said, “Fast when you see the moon and cease your fast when you see the moon.”[5] It is the consensus of classical Muslim scholars that astronomical calculations cannot be used as a replacement for actually sighting the moon (for Ramadan) with the naked eye. This is the difference between sighting the moon, which is needed to confirm the start of the month of Ramadan or Hajj, and the sighting of the twilight which is used to decide prayer times.
18 degrees below the horizon for Fajr, and either 17 or 18 degrees for Isha
It is with this in mind that we may conclude that an individual’s mushāhadah for prayer times must not negate the accepted criterion that was originated by global and widespread mushāhadah (of when twilight occurs and disappears) established in different countries and throughout the centuries. That criterion is the basis for the decision of both Muslim jurists and astronomers that Fajr should be calculated when the sun is at 18 degrees below the horizon for Fajr, and either 17 or 18 degrees for Isha. It should be noted that the slight choice offered for Isha times is insignificant and thus there is no need to discuss it here.
Many scholars at different times throughout the course of history, and in many different regions of the world, have sighted (with the naked eye) the shar’ῑ signs given in the divine text and calculated that it corresponds with 18 degrees below the horizon criterion, a fact that they have then recorded. Given that so many scholars from different places of the world and at different periods during the last thousand years have come to produce the same calculation lends overwhelmingly more weight to the 18 degree formula than a few people gathering in one part of the world during the same period to come up with a divergent opinion. This is not a matter of differences amongst schools of thought as the overwhelming majority of scholars amongst various sects and schools of thought agree with the 18 degree formula. I have recently discussed the issue with Mufti Taqi Uthmani (in the company of other scholars) who stated that he himself along with 99% of the scholars of the Indian sub-continent viewed the 18 degree formula to be the correct calculation for prayer times.
What is the correct mushāhadah for Fajr?
Muslim astronomers as early as Mohammed ibn Jabir ibn Sinan, famously known as Albategnius (d. 929 CE), confirmed that Fajr and Isha shar’ῑ signs are visible when the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon. Other scholars stated that there is a consensus in regards to this conclusion. Among the very last conferences at which this issue was discussed thoroughly was the one organized by the Fiqh Council of the Muslim World League in 1986 where scholars and astronomers from various backgrounds and schools of thought confirmed that Fajr appears when the sun is at 18 degrees below the horizon in the east. They also confirmed that Isha time appears when the sun is at 17 degrees below the horizon from the west. This decision was reiterated by the same fiqh council in 2007 in response to a query sent to the council by the central Mosque in Belgium.
The following table shows the various institutes that are referred to for the Fajr and Isha times currently in use in many countries:
| Convention | Fajr Angle | Isha Angle |
| University of Islamic Sciences, Karachi | 18 | 18 |
| Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) | 15* | 15* |
| Muslim World League (MWL) | 18 | 17 |
| Umm al-Qura, Makkah | 19* | According to their table it is 90 mins after Maghrib |
| Egyptian General Authority of Survey | 19.5* | * |
* I could not verify it myself through their literature; however this is what is widely attributed to them.
Download a Ramadan Timetable with the correct Fasting start time, here.
Download a Ramadan Timetable with the correct Fasting start time, here.
As you may see from the timetable, most of these institutes consider 18 degrees as the minimum degree for calculating Fajr time with the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) providing somewhat of an anomalous calculation.
Hizbul Ulama (UK) and their mistaken understanding of mushahadah
The Hizbul Ulama timetable is one that has been adopted by a number of mosques around the UK including the recent ‘Unified prayer timetable for London’ adopted by East London Mosque and Regents Park Mosque. The fact that these organisations have sought to unite the Muslim community is an extremely praiseworthy matter, indeed unity is one of the most important factors that leads to the strengthening of the Muslim community and I commend them for their sincerity. However, I sincerely believe that the Hizbul Ulama have overlooked many important fundamentals such as being unable to identify the main criterion for deciding prayer times – they mistakenly assume that it is through individual mushahadah. As a result of this, they have never compared their mushahadah with the mushahadah of others both within the UK and outside of it. They have opposed the overwhelming number of jurists and contradictorily claim that last year’s mushahadah may be used for this year whilst maintaining that an individual may only pray when he himself has seen the shar’ῑ sign!
According to the Hizbul Ulama timetable, the length of the Maghrib twilight in winter is either equal or longer than that of summer when it is well known that summer has longer days. Similarly, their timetable posits that the length of the twilight in London is almost the same as that of Makkah although London is of high latitude (L 51° 30) whereas Makkah al-Mukarramah is of much lower latitude (L 21° 25). It is examples such as these (of which there are more) that simply demonstrate the unreliability of the Hizbul Ulama methodology in ascertaining the correct prayer times.
Advice for the laity and mosque committees
No one can claim that one should merely follow the textual evidences since the issue is related to interpretation. It is true that some individuals might not be convinced with a particular conclusion, yet it would be destructive to the deen of Allah to leave it to individual choice. The Muslim is obliged to abandon many of his own conclusions for those agreed upon by the consensus of the scholars which is invariably based upon the Qur’an and Sunnah. Indeed, an individual might adopt a particular conclusion himself, but he should not instruct others to abandon the mainstream Islamic opinion for his own personal conclusion. I appeal to committees of mosques not to conclude on any matter which is divergent from those adopted by the overwhelming majority of Muslims. The basis for this is the authority given by the sharῑʽah to the consensus of Muslim scholars. The Prophet stated that his Ummah would never agree on an error and thus the minority opinion cannot stand against the vast majority where the overwhelming majority is in fact equivalent to consensus.
Why shouldn’t individuals follow their own mosques?
Individual acts of worship are matters that a person will be questioned about, and those acts of worship that are not linked to other Muslims are not included in acts of worship that a person can give up for the sake of unity or to merely blindly follow others. Although people should pray in congregation at their local mosques, the start of fasting is not connected to the timing of the local mosque. Therefore, the person should exert effort to identify the correct position that will free him from any burden on the Day of Judgment.
What about the issue of tabayyun?
The overwhelming majority of classical scholars adopted the 18 degree calculation for Fajr and 17 or 18 degrees for Isha, and for this reason there is no real disagreement that might be used as a justification for ijtihad or adopting the easiest option. Moreover, tabayyun should take place when we are not quite sure whether the light of Fajr is apparent. However, those who adopt the 18 degree formula are certain of the appearance of the Fajr light and thus tabayyun is achieved without adopting a lower degree.
What about Isha? What can we do during the summer period when the twilight persists?
According to the 18 degrees calculation, there is a period during summer (for countries above a certain latitude) where the Maghrib twilight does not actually disappear - a phenomenon known as the persisting twilight (where the shar’i indications for the occurrence of Isha do not become visible). The time for Isha is too late whilst the time for Fajr is too early immediately before and after this period. For example, this period starts in London on 26th May whereby the persisting twilights remain until approximately 12:35 and Fajr starts at around 1: 15 a.m. The period ends around the 19th July where Fajr is 1:18 a.m. During the period of absence of shar’ῑ signs scholars have suggested two main methods:
1) Estimation, or
2) Adopting the time of the last day when the shar’ῑ signs were visible.
Estimation creates a big gap between the last day the sign is visible and the day after. Similarly, it creates a big gap between the day the signs are not visible and the day after. The only consistent method is adopting the time of the last day in which the sign was visible all the way up until it becomes visible again. This is a systematic method in which no large gaps are witnessed between different days.
There is also a level of flexibility to the start of Isha times when it tends to begin very late. Scholars have different approaches on what should be done when Isha becomes very late since hardship will be incurred in offering the prayer at such a late hour. The two main approaches are: a) combining the Maghrib and Isha prayer, and b) estimating Isha time. The Fiqh Council of the Muslim World league issued a decree during their 19th assembly in Makkah al-Mukarramah held on 8/11/2007 concerning prayer times for countries situated between the latitudes of 48 and 66 degrees North and South,
‘To clarify this decree further in order to answer the specific problematic scenario put forward to the Council, the Council views the previous decree instructing the use of referring (to other regions) for reference, for countries with latitudes between 48 and 66 degrees North and South, to be specifically for the case where astronomical signs for the times are non-existent. As for the case where the signs of prayer times do occur but the disappearance of twilight, indicating the start of Isha, is very late, the Council views it as being obligatory to pray Isha in its legally specified time. However, whoever experiences difficulty in waiting to pray it in its time, like students, office-workers and labourers during the days of their work, they can combine prayers in accordance with the textual evidences relating to the removal of burdens from the Ummah. One example of this is the narration of Ibn ‘Abbas, and others, may Allah be pleased with them, “The Messenger of Allah combined Zhuhr and ‘Asr, and Maghrib and Isha in Madinah without (cause of) fear or rain”. Ibn ‘Abbas was questioned about this to which he replied, ‘He wanted to not burden his Ummah’. The condition for this though is that the practice of combining should not be the norm for all people in that country for this whole duration because this will in effect change the concession of combining into a permanent and intended obligatory action from the onset. The Council also views the adoption of approximating and distributing the times in such a situation all the more (appropriate).’
Praying Isha at its time according to 18 degrees is the best scenario that should be adopted as long as the time falls before the middle of the night (midway between Maghrib and Fajr). However, since the sharῑʽah stipulates that certain forms of hardships allow for some concessions, praying Isha before the time obtained is a form of combining prayers that some scholars have allowed in cases of hardship and necessity. It is known in the sharῑʽah that the rigorousness applied to Fajr, Zhuhr and Maghrib is not like that of Isha and Asr as their times merge with Maghrib and Zhuhr respectively in cases of necessity. We should pray Isha before the middle of the night and long before Fajr in order to avoid combining it with Fajr. If the best scenario cannot be followed, I suggest that Isha be prayed at the latest time people can pray it without hardship, such as 11:00 p.m. This time should be maintained until the time returns to earlier on in the day. In regards to Ramadan, taraweeh or qiyam al-layl (including the witr), it should be prayed after the Isha prayer and finish at a time that allows for people to have the predawn meal.
Having written this and respectfully disagreeing with others, I urge all to maintain the Islamic etiquette of differing. We should not allow such differences to disunite us or place enmity in our hearts. May Allah keep us united, keep our hearts pure, and forgive our shortcomings.
For an example of a prayer timetable for the main cities in the United Kingdom, please click here, or alternatively, you can use accurate times software provided that you use the correct formula for prayer: 18 degree for Fajr and 17 Degree for Isha.
Notes: (Download a Ramadan Timetable, including the correct Fajr start time, here)
Sources:
Islam21c requests all the readers of this article, and others, to share it on your facebook, twitter, and other platforms to further spread our efforts.
Sources:
Islam21c requests all the readers of this article, and others, to share it on your facebook, twitter, and other platforms to further spread our efforts.
[1] Qur’an 2:187
[2] Al-Bukhari and Muslim
[3] Sunan al-Tirmidhi
[4] Qur’an 17:78
[5] Narrated by Abu Hurairah and Abdullah ibn Umar; al-Bukhari and Muslim.
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Rest Assured
written by Uthmaan, August 11, 2011
written by Uthmaan, August 11, 2011
Aslamu'alaykum wr wb,
I have tried to look into the matter (from a lay man perspective which I am) and have come across the following resources that I think are very useful.
It will take you approx 15-20min to look through both sites and make up your mind....
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...r_embedded
This video explains clearly what Subah Saadiq is...
2. http://www.hizbululama.org.uk/...grees.html
this article explains why fixing a degree to sub saadiq with be incorrect.
I am assuming you have already read Shaky Haithams (hafidhuallahs) article.
Finally I think we really need to get out and make some observations ourselves if we are confused.
I would also like to thank the Shaykh.. remember even if he is incorrect Allah rewards him for his opinion.
I have tried to look into the matter (from a lay man perspective which I am) and have come across the following resources that I think are very useful.
It will take you approx 15-20min to look through both sites and make up your mind....
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...r_embedded
This video explains clearly what Subah Saadiq is...
2. http://www.hizbululama.org.uk/...grees.html
this article explains why fixing a degree to sub saadiq with be incorrect.
I am assuming you have already read Shaky Haithams (hafidhuallahs) article.
Finally I think we really need to get out and make some observations ourselves if we are confused.
I would also like to thank the Shaykh.. remember even if he is incorrect Allah rewards him for his opinion.
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fajar and isha
written by Ibn Hasan, August 09, 2011
written by Ibn Hasan, August 09, 2011
assalamolaikum Sheikh Haitham
I would just like to point out the flaw in your argument against the hizbululama timetable based on mushahadah. Despite what you say about winter gap beinglonger than summer this is not true of the hizb timetable. If you look at the record of obseravtions these show that winter length for twilight is around 1.5 hours whereas in summer the recorded time for First light is 3 hours. Also, the length is not similar to Saudi either. What you are comparing is not like for like. You are looking at the timetable construction which is based on the use of first light and tabayyun times switched in summer and winter. As such your arguments are completely flawed. Please seriously consider re-writing the article as it is not correct. I will send you the observation record separately for you to study as it seems you have not done so. Having said that I am very pleased you start off with a statment on tolerating differences. Recently some scholars have been using abusive language against other scholars and this clearly is wrong.
I would just like to point out the flaw in your argument against the hizbululama timetable based on mushahadah. Despite what you say about winter gap beinglonger than summer this is not true of the hizb timetable. If you look at the record of obseravtions these show that winter length for twilight is around 1.5 hours whereas in summer the recorded time for First light is 3 hours. Also, the length is not similar to Saudi either. What you are comparing is not like for like. You are looking at the timetable construction which is based on the use of first light and tabayyun times switched in summer and winter. As such your arguments are completely flawed. Please seriously consider re-writing the article as it is not correct. I will send you the observation record separately for you to study as it seems you have not done so. Having said that I am very pleased you start off with a statment on tolerating differences. Recently some scholars have been using abusive language against other scholars and this clearly is wrong.
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Confusion and Fitnah - the first step to unity
written by Abu Haneefah, August 07, 2011
written by Abu Haneefah, August 07, 2011
There is clearly significant confusion re the start of Fajr and Esha time which leads to confusion and fitnah in the community. However, there is some good in this. The scholars and major Islamic institutions may now feel the pressure from their congregations and students. This in turn may lead to an agreed upon timetable for next Ramadan - inshaalah. As a community we tend to be reactionary and we often need to feel some pain first before we are mobilised into action.
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Error in Judgement
written by wislam, August 06, 2011
written by wislam, August 06, 2011
I completely agree with comments by Ramem and Abu Rumaysa (go out and check with your eyes!).
As Allah(swt) says, start fasting when you _SEE_ the white thread (dawn) becomes clear to you from the black thread (night) - Qur'an 2:187.
The 2:30am fajr time appears to be completely flaud and I'm shocked Hatham al-Haddad has yet again made such an error in judgement.
I live in Hertfordshire (away from light pollution of London) and on the 2nd August 2011, I observed the whiteness of dawn become distinct at 3:50am - but more so at 4am.
Why didn't the sheikh use the eyes Allah(swt) has blessed us with?!
As Allah(swt) says, start fasting when you _SEE_ the white thread (dawn) becomes clear to you from the black thread (night) - Qur'an 2:187.
The 2:30am fajr time appears to be completely flaud and I'm shocked Hatham al-Haddad has yet again made such an error in judgement.
I live in Hertfordshire (away from light pollution of London) and on the 2nd August 2011, I observed the whiteness of dawn become distinct at 3:50am - but more so at 4am.
Why didn't the sheikh use the eyes Allah(swt) has blessed us with?!
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Check out the Opposing view too
written by abu sumayyah, August 05, 2011
written by abu sumayyah, August 05, 2011
Please check out moonsightingcom, calltoislam for opposing view - prayertimes.
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To M. Ali
written by Abu Abdurrahman, August 03, 2011
written by Abu Abdurrahman, August 03, 2011
Brother, the fact that a major mosque states fajr is at a given time, does NOT serve as an excuse for you/me to stop suhoor at their timings. We are individually responsible for our fasts respectively.
Just because some major mosques have opined to a given time for Fajr/imsaak, is not a sufficient basis for individuals to feel their fast is safe when that means going against the overwhelming majority of classical scholars - some of whim cited a near consensus on the issue.
Just because some major mosques have opined to a given time for Fajr/imsaak, is not a sufficient basis for individuals to feel their fast is safe when that means going against the overwhelming majority of classical scholars - some of whim cited a near consensus on the issue.
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written by Abu Abdurrahman, August 03, 2011
written by Abu Abdurrahman, August 03, 2011
The easiest option brothers and sisters, is to err on the side of caution. When you know that the criteria of the mass majority of classical scholars was the one advanced by the Shaikh, just syop the fast slightly earlier (with the time suggested). That way you are certain of correct suhoor. You don't need to pray fajr until jamat time when the time has defintiely come in (ie the latest time).
As for Isha - as the shaikh said, there's some flexibility there inshallah.
But at least just err on the side of caution for your suhoor - take the early time. And pray fajr once you are sure it's in (the later time). And read Quran/make dua in that time!
As for Isha - as the shaikh said, there's some flexibility there inshallah.
But at least just err on the side of caution for your suhoor - take the early time. And pray fajr once you are sure it's in (the later time). And read Quran/make dua in that time!
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Ishaa time.
written by Kasim, August 01, 2011
written by Kasim, August 01, 2011
Assalaamu alaykum,
considering that the article mandates a later time for Ishaa, is there ANYWHERE in London, that actually follows this timetable so that I can join Ishaa in congregation and not miss some/all or taraaweeh???
Most places have adopted the unified timetable where Ishaa is more than an hour earlier than the timetable in this article.
Jazaakum Allaahu Khairan.
considering that the article mandates a later time for Ishaa, is there ANYWHERE in London, that actually follows this timetable so that I can join Ishaa in congregation and not miss some/all or taraaweeh???
Most places have adopted the unified timetable where Ishaa is more than an hour earlier than the timetable in this article.
Jazaakum Allaahu Khairan.
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written by Bint Ataullah, August 01, 2011
written by Bint Ataullah, August 01, 2011
Jazak Allah khair Sheikh for your advice. However, I am left feeling extremely confused now as to what to do and whom to follow - having contacted one of the main mosques for further guidance three times in the past 2 days, I have only been advised that the Unified timetable is absolutely valid - this has caused a tremendous amount of anxiety for fear of finishing Sehri late, and thus causing my & my family's fast to be invalid. The technicalities of the calculations for the timings are complex, and for the majority of lay people such as myself - way beyond that which we can understand without some deeper study.
Can there be some means of dialogue between the main parties in this issue to result in a truely unified timetable??
Can there be some means of dialogue between the main parties in this issue to result in a truely unified timetable??
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Correct Fajr Time
written by Abu Rumaysa, August 01, 2011
written by Abu Rumaysa, August 01, 2011
Assalamu alaykum,
I think everyone is lost in numbers and calculations etc. There is one simple test; Go out into the country side, far away from light pollution in the early hours and test every calendar and physically see dawn beginning.
The Science being used is not being applied correctly. The Muslims in the UK need to carry out emperical testing, e.g. carry out some real world experiments to assess twilight times.
Salams
I think everyone is lost in numbers and calculations etc. There is one simple test; Go out into the country side, far away from light pollution in the early hours and test every calendar and physically see dawn beginning.
The Science being used is not being applied correctly. The Muslims in the UK need to carry out emperical testing, e.g. carry out some real world experiments to assess twilight times.
Salams
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Another opinion
written by Min Ummati Rasulilah Sallalahu Alayhi Wasallam, August 01, 2011
written by Min Ummati Rasulilah Sallalahu Alayhi Wasallam, August 01, 2011
The UK has been united under Hizbul Ulama's Mushahadah for some time now, recently there has been alot of aggressive propaganda targetting Masjids which follow Mushahada in support of 18 degrees which is sowing disunity and creating Fitnah. Shaykh's article timed at the start of Ramadan and aimed at the mass readership adds to more confusion for British Muslims and does not help the issue of unity....
I request Shaykh Haitham please remove the article and leave this to the Scholarly circles and let us carry on with our Ibadah peacefully...
I request Shaykh Haitham please remove the article and leave this to the Scholarly circles and let us carry on with our Ibadah peacefully...
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Ignorance
written by Ramem, August 01, 2011
written by Ramem, August 01, 2011
I am afraid the sheikh is speaking in a matter where he has no expert knowledge and therefore his conclusions are completely flowed. 18 degree formula was concluded by the scietists of the past all of whom lived near equator. This formula is not valid in summer times for countries that are further away from equator such UK itself. Using 18 degree formula results in abnormal times for fajr in june and july that sheikh has not even bothered to check himself. Anyone can check from the linked website (http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/websurf/) that 18 degree calculation fails in those dates.
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Prayer Timings
written by Abdula, July 31, 2011
written by Abdula, July 31, 2011
Asalam alaikum warahmatuLah;
I read the very interesting article by Sheikh Haitham regarding the prayer timings and have had a look at the downloadable timetable.
I was just wondering however, if the 18o method was used in calculating these times why do they seem to correspond at Ramadan Day 13 to timings calculated using the North American Islamic Society method which uses 15o?
The reason I mention this is, the timetable on Islam channel's website uses the North America method and it is identical to that on this website from Day 13 onwards.
JazakumAllah khair
If you can please provide a reply via email
I read the very interesting article by Sheikh Haitham regarding the prayer timings and have had a look at the downloadable timetable.
I was just wondering however, if the 18o method was used in calculating these times why do they seem to correspond at Ramadan Day 13 to timings calculated using the North American Islamic Society method which uses 15o?
The reason I mention this is, the timetable on Islam channel's website uses the North America method and it is identical to that on this website from Day 13 onwards.
JazakumAllah khair
If you can please provide a reply via email
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written by Ibrahim, July 31, 2011
written by Ibrahim, July 31, 2011
We have the same situation in Toronto and here is a link to an excellent presentation by Shaikh Yusuf Badat to clarify the matter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6etVXMdd54&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6etVXMdd54&feature=player_embedded
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JazakAllahu Khairan
written by Ibn Abdillah, July 31, 2011
written by Ibn Abdillah, July 31, 2011
For more details on 18 degrees times and timetables see salahtimes.wikispaces.com
Looks like website was created last year and it explains a few things ...
Looks like website was created last year and it explains a few things ...
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written by M. Ali, July 31, 2011
written by M. Ali, July 31, 2011
Assalamualaykum
JazakAllah khayran to the Sh. Haytham for writing on this matter but I feel that ultimately I found the article neither hugely clarifying nor persuasive enough to abandon the conclusions of two large mosques/a large organisation. It seems like one scholar asking people to abandon the opinions of a number of scholars for his own. I guess this is fine for his own students or others too if he makes a compelling argument but that hasnt been the case (for me at least). The Shaykh's own students are prob the one's best placed to follow the shaykh's opinion - but then Islam21c somewhat pretentiously puts up a ramadan timetable calling referring to the 'correct' time for fajr. Just imagine how many different 'correct' fajr timetables there are up and down this small country. A small HTML article like this wouldnt be enough for me to abandon london's biggest mosques not least because there are several unsubtantiated/unreferenced statements and it's not a detailed rigorous analysis of Muslim ritual law like we're used to seeing in books like nayl-ul-awtar etc. May Allah ta'ala bless us with more and more unity and I wish Sh. Haytham and all brothers/sisters here a productive and special Ramadan. wassalam
JazakAllah khayran to the Sh. Haytham for writing on this matter but I feel that ultimately I found the article neither hugely clarifying nor persuasive enough to abandon the conclusions of two large mosques/a large organisation. It seems like one scholar asking people to abandon the opinions of a number of scholars for his own. I guess this is fine for his own students or others too if he makes a compelling argument but that hasnt been the case (for me at least). The Shaykh's own students are prob the one's best placed to follow the shaykh's opinion - but then Islam21c somewhat pretentiously puts up a ramadan timetable calling referring to the 'correct' time for fajr. Just imagine how many different 'correct' fajr timetables there are up and down this small country. A small HTML article like this wouldnt be enough for me to abandon london's biggest mosques not least because there are several unsubtantiated/unreferenced statements and it's not a detailed rigorous analysis of Muslim ritual law like we're used to seeing in books like nayl-ul-awtar etc. May Allah ta'ala bless us with more and more unity and I wish Sh. Haytham and all brothers/sisters here a productive and special Ramadan. wassalam
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written by faruk, July 31, 2011
written by faruk, July 31, 2011
assalamoaluykum,
very interesting and informative.hope masjid committees take this on board.
as regards to hizbul ulama study back in the 80's it has errors and these need to be addressed for example the observed time for fajr does not always match the prayer time on the timetable.may ALLAH SWT guide and unite us all.
as regards to ramadhan also i hope scholars would take a stand against hizbul ulama and highlight the errors in following saudi.
very interesting and informative.hope masjid committees take this on board.
as regards to hizbul ulama study back in the 80's it has errors and these need to be addressed for example the observed time for fajr does not always match the prayer time on the timetable.may ALLAH SWT guide and unite us all.
as regards to ramadhan also i hope scholars would take a stand against hizbul ulama and highlight the errors in following saudi.
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questions need answers
written by Atiq, July 31, 2011
written by Atiq, July 31, 2011
Assalaam.
All these comments where poeple are asking further questions, as they are now confused (+1)
All these questions that are raised due to this article need further answers. Please provide answers and suggestions.
JazakAllah khair.
All these comments where poeple are asking further questions, as they are now confused (+1)
All these questions that are raised due to this article need further answers. Please provide answers and suggestions.
JazakAllah khair.
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written by umm sumayya, July 30, 2011
written by umm sumayya, July 30, 2011
this article has confused me 
my local masjid time table is like an hour ahead for fajr. will our fast be invalid if we follow local imam? so confused now....what to do?? help 
my local masjid time table is like an hour ahead for fajr. will our fast be invalid if we follow local imam? so confused now....what to do?? help
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May Allah Ta Ala forgive us.
written by Abdullah, July 30, 2011
written by Abdullah, July 30, 2011
Bismillah, Alhamdolillah.
Jazakallah khairan shaikh for your efforts.
I hope once and for all a valid solution for the Ummah will come
and ask Allah ta ala(from my heart)by whom there is no other deity worthy of worship to hear my cry for justice on this matter and manny other issues on islam so that we can worship Allah ta ala as He The majestic and Sublime wants. May Allah ta ala forgive our shortcomings(those who realy seek justice and are sincere)and accept our deeds done for his sake only and grant us guidance and protection from the trials of life and death.
Ameen
Wa Alaikum salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
Advise: Recite this dua often brothers and sistersAllahumaghfirlee, warhamnee, wahdeeni, wa afinee, warzuqni, fa innaka antal ghafurur raheem)
Allahuma sali ala Muhammad (salallahu ta ala alaihi wassalaam)
Jazakallah khairan shaikh for your efforts.
I hope once and for all a valid solution for the Ummah will come
and ask Allah ta ala(from my heart)by whom there is no other deity worthy of worship to hear my cry for justice on this matter and manny other issues on islam so that we can worship Allah ta ala as He The majestic and Sublime wants. May Allah ta ala forgive our shortcomings(those who realy seek justice and are sincere)and accept our deeds done for his sake only and grant us guidance and protection from the trials of life and death.
Ameen
Wa Alaikum salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
Advise: Recite this dua often brothers and sisters
Allahumaghfirlee, warhamnee, wahdeeni, wa afinee, warzuqni, fa innaka antal ghafurur raheem) Allahuma sali ala Muhammad (salallahu ta ala alaihi wassalaam)
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No unity
written by Faraz Choudhry, July 30, 2011
written by Faraz Choudhry, July 30, 2011
The easiest thing to do until then is follow your local imaam and community just to make things easy and prevent further division.
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Interesting
written by Mz, July 30, 2011
written by Mz, July 30, 2011
Asalaamu Alaikum,
Jazakallahu khairan shaykh for your efforts. This will have some practical implications such as not being able to attend for Tarawih prayers in most if not all the masaajid. Also probably will not be unable to attend qiyam al layl in the last 10-15 nights which many masaajid arrange for the local people.
Jazakallahu khairan shaykh for your efforts. This will have some practical implications such as not being able to attend for Tarawih prayers in most if not all the masaajid. Also probably will not be unable to attend qiyam al layl in the last 10-15 nights which many masaajid arrange for the local people.
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so many opinions
written by sadia, July 30, 2011
written by sadia, July 30, 2011
just when finally i had decided to follow the opinion of a respected scholar, this article cums up....this is very confusing for laypeople. What do you do when more than one scholar gives convincing arguments. Who do you follow? And they're both trustworthy? there are so many diff opinions out there right now, about fajr n isha, n they're all backed by respected scholars....
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confusion on confusion
written by TarekAhmed, July 30, 2011
written by TarekAhmed, July 30, 2011
Assalamu Alaikum,
Jazah Kallah Khair ya Sheikh for your analysis.
My concern however is that this is only creating further confusion. Though you have given your reasons for why Hisbul Ulama UK are incorrect- they are not without evidence (http://www.hizbululama.org.uk/..._times.pdf and http://www.hizbululama.org.uk/...grees.html and even quoting islam-qa and Sheikh Albani Rahimullah).
The times given for Fajr differ by 1 hour from my local timetable and I am confused as to what is my best option.
On one hand stopping eating at the earlier time makes me safe. On the other hand given how long the days are in the UK, using the longer time offers ease where there clearly is not a consensus. Additionally convincing myself is one thing, but then there is the rest of the family
Once again I praise your efforts but suggest these should be in discussion with the scholars and you for the sake of unity work to change them and not the people as many will be left confused.
Wassalam
Jazah Kallah Khair ya Sheikh for your analysis.
My concern however is that this is only creating further confusion. Though you have given your reasons for why Hisbul Ulama UK are incorrect- they are not without evidence (http://www.hizbululama.org.uk/..._times.pdf and http://www.hizbululama.org.uk/...grees.html and even quoting islam-qa and Sheikh Albani Rahimullah).
The times given for Fajr differ by 1 hour from my local timetable and I am confused as to what is my best option.
On one hand stopping eating at the earlier time makes me safe. On the other hand given how long the days are in the UK, using the longer time offers ease where there clearly is not a consensus. Additionally convincing myself is one thing, but then there is the rest of the family
Once again I praise your efforts but suggest these should be in discussion with the scholars and you for the sake of unity work to change them and not the people as many will be left confused.
Wassalam
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Write comment
This is an intriging topic, one must ask who, naming names, supports either side as we need to see the level of consensus on either side, and I mean across the Muslim world, in particular Egypt, India, Pakistan, Malaysia and to some degree Saudi (perhaps there is too much uniformity and too little expertise on such issues in Saudi).
Csn anyone drop some names that AGREE with the shaikh?
Btw I am not from TJ but I love the name.